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info on 4.0?

UserPost

4:55 pm
February 24, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

I haven't heard anything good about this edition. Does anyone want to fill me in on GOOD changes from 3.0 to this?

4:59 pm
February 24, 2009


Paranitis

Sacramento (Rosemont), CA

Veteran

posts 46

It's very simplified so that anyone can learn how to play. There's no learning curve at all. It's like playing a video game without a controller. That's about it.

5:05 pm
February 24, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

Paranitis said:

It's very simplified so that anyone can learn how to play. There's no learning curve at all. It's like playing a video game without a controller. That's about it.


I read your other post on this matter. See my reply.

5:05 pm
February 24, 2009


SkilGalen

Admin

posts 59

I only just got back into D&D and skipped 3.0 entirely. Having said that, I have been playing in a mutant game that mixes 3.5 and 4.0 players with 3.5 players getting extra feats to balance the advantage 4.0 players have early on.

One thing I noticed is that amongst the people I play with, the ones that are strongly in favour of 3.x are the players that like stacking multiple classes and building fairly OTT characters. 4E so far seems a lot more balanced and keeps things a bit more down to earth. It might just be that the rules haven't had time to expand into what 3.5 is.

In the past I mostly played Basic, 1E and 2E without a battle grid. So for me the changes in the game are quite pronounced but I like it a lot. A lot seems to be trimmed off, some skills seem to have been relocated to feats or class based powers. Most of it makes sense to me and the new rules in my mind doesn't effect roleplay. Having said that, a lot of people seem to disagree.

I've been playing in homebrew games and avoided RPGA so far. Having a great time with 4.

5:08 pm
February 24, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

admin said:

I only just got back into D&D and skipped 3.0 entirely. Having said that, I have been playing in a mutant game that mixes 3.5 and 4.0 players with 3.5 players getting extra feats to balance the advantage 4.0 players have early on.

One thing I noticed is that amongst the people I play with, the ones that are strongly in favour of 3.x are the players that like stacking multiple classes and building fairly OTT characters. 4E so far seems a lot more balanced and keeps things a bit more down to earth. It might just be that the rules haven't had time to expand into what 3.5 is.

In the past I mostly played Basic, 1E and 2E without a battle grid. So for me the changes in the game are quite pronounced but I like it a lot. A lot seems to be trimmed off, some skills seem to have been relocated to feats or class based powers. Most of it makes sense to me and the new rules in my mind doesn't effect roleplay. Having said that, a lot of people seem to disagree.

I've been playing in homebrew games and avoided RPGA so far. Having a great time with 4.


What is an OTT character? Over the top?

5:24 pm
February 24, 2009


SkilGalen

Admin

posts 59

yeah over the top. Thought everyone knew OTT. I'm from the UK maybe it's not as commonly used here. Occasionaly you get people that have characters that have so many diverse things to manage in their stats it can bog down the game whilst they work out what their character can and can't do and then explain it all to the DM. If you like a fairly balanced mix of roleplay and encounters and a steady pace through the game those massively multiclassed characters it can slow things down to a crawl and ruin the game for some.

Still there are many different way's to play D&D, the hard part is finding the right blend of players that suit how you want to play the game. One of the reasons this site came into being was to hopefully make it easier for players to meet like minded people give them a place to discuss whatever they wanted and make it easier to form local groups they can campaign in.

5:37 pm
February 24, 2009


Paranitis

Sacramento (Rosemont), CA

Veteran

posts 46

I think that's what it means. But that all boils down to your DM as well though. I never have a problem with people having overly powerful characters, as long as they roleplay as well.

Bad Game:

Rogue (Charisma based) – I want to find out information about *whatever*.

DM – Okay, make a roll.

Rogue – I roll and get a 17.

DM – You know that *blah blah blah*

Rogue – Okay, now I roll for sleight of hand and get a 12 to steal his money.

DM – You fail.

Rogue – I want to try again. I roll a 24.

DM – You are able to take his coinpurse and it has *amount* in it.

Good Game:

Rogue (Charisma based) – I want to find out information about *whatever*.

DM – Okay, well nearby you see a couple merchants doing business with people, a couple city watchmen chatting it up while randomly pointing and laughing at someone or something. You also see another watchman who seems to be doing his rounds.

Rogue – I want to ask the watchman who's walking around.

DM – Alrighty, make a *whatever* roll.

Rogue – I got a 17.

DM – He looks at you and asks if he can be of any service.

Rogue and DM – Roleplay happens between the PC and NPC. The information is obtained.

Rogue – Okay, now I wanna pick his pockets. I roll and get a 12.

DM – *makes a spot check and passes.* It doesn't work. Make a spot check.

Rogue – Spot? Okay, I get a 7.

DM – Okay.

Rogue – I try again. I roll a 24.

DM – Make a strength check (I think..been awhile).

Rogue – Uhh, okay. I get a 15.

DM – *makes another spot check and passes* You take the guard's coinpurse. *secret roll* You are then hit in the side as the two idle town guards tackle you and say you are under arrest.

Now at that point since the Rogue is Charisma based, he can try to talk his way out of it and confuse them, or even try to plant the coinpurse on their bodies while he is trying to explain his situation and then redirect it as saying one of them did it, or any other kinds of possibilities. If the DM gives more detail, you may be more interested in roleplaying. And if the DM is a good one and all the player cares about is making rolls, then you can always kick them out.

11:06 pm
February 25, 2009


jenzler

New Member

posts 1

Matt_R said:

I haven't heard anything good about this edition. Does anyone want to fill me in on GOOD changes from 3.0 to this?


It is simpler to learn and play… 

1st level wizards have something to do after the first two rounds of combat…

You get more hit points and do more damage (of course… so do all the monsters)

If you think of it as another game (not DnD) then it is easier to accept.

12:22 pm
February 26, 2009


SkilGalen

Admin

posts 59

I think it all depends on whether you are willing to accept changeand varied from person to person. Apples and Oranges, there's nothing stopping you from playing whichever version you like.  Some of the points that would be seen as negatives like consolidated skills I actually prefer. Less micromanagement and more fluid simpler gameplay that flows better and  a neat power system that allows for  alot of fun heroic feat like combat is pretty cool. Roleplaying is roleplaying and doesn't really change, I don't think the rules were required for roleplay and the simpler skill system might make it even easier.

Like most things time and expansions will probably tell whether 4 was a success or not. The poll at the meetup group has 4x more people favouring 4E over 3.x

4:49 pm
February 26, 2009


Pureheart1975

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Veteran

posts 37

People just don't like change.  I play them both.

7:21 pm
February 26, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

admin said:

yeah over the top. Thought everyone knew OTT. I'm from the UK maybe it's not as commonly used here. Occasionaly you get people that have characters that have so many diverse things to manage in their stats it can bog down the game whilst they work out what their character can and can't do and then explain it all to the DM. If you like a fairly balanced mix of roleplay and encounters and a steady pace through the game those massively multiclassed characters it can slow things down to a crawl and ruin the game for some.

Still there are many different way's to play D&D, the hard part is finding the right blend of players that suit how you want to play the game. One of the reasons this site came into being was to hopefully make it easier for players to meet like minded people give them a place to discuss whatever they wanted and make it easier to form local groups they can campaign in.


Yeah, I knew a guy who played a race I can't spell (smirf neblin??) and had every item he needed and could do anything. He had $ pages or written (and crossed out and re-written) notes as a character sheet. AUGH!!! it took him FOREVER to decide what to do.

7:24 pm
February 26, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

jenzler said:

Matt_R said:

I haven't heard anything good about this edition. Does anyone want to fill me in on GOOD changes from 3.0 to this?


It is simpler to learn and play… 

1st level wizards have something to do after the first two rounds of combat…

You get more hit points and do more damage (of course… so do all the monsters)

If you think of it as another game (not DnD) then it is easier to accept.


1st level wzards huh? LOL. I LOVE it! No one ever mentions those poor guys!

7:28 pm
February 26, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

Pureheart1975 said:

People just don't like change.  I play them both.


I disagree (just because!) I loved the change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. I just don't like WOTC trying to soak us for more books every so often. Change is inevitable, otherwise you get stagnation.

9:15 pm
February 26, 2009


Paranitis

Sacramento (Rosemont), CA

Veteran

posts 46

Has nothing to do with change. Actually I was pretty excited about 4.0, until I started reading the rule changes and the stuff they were getting rid of.

I thought 4.0 was going to be more like 3.0 as far as classes and races and ideas came down, but that 4.0 would change the rules so they ran more smoothly..and sure, 4.0 made the mechanics run more smoothly, but they did it by butchering everything and watering it down.

3.x was like a nice steak dinner where everything was cooked really well, but they put they served it with the wrong vegetable. It was so close to being just right. And then 4.0 comes around and they have the correct vegetable, but they decided to boil the steak instead of grill it. It just doesn't work.

Also that race that was mentioned is the Svirfneblin. They were kinda interesting, but I've never been one to play underdark races as my characters. Actually I'm not a huge fan of anything higher than a +1 ECL.

9:20 pm
February 26, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

Paranitis said:

Also that race that was mentioned is the Svirfneblin. They were kinda interesting, but I've never been one to play underdark races as my characters. Actually I'm not a huge fan of anything higher than a +1 ECL.


Hey! I was actually close this time. I hated that guy's playing style soooo much that I think I have a mental block on the spelling. Glad you knew!

2:36 pm
March 5, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

Matt_R said:

Yeah, I knew a guy who played a race I can't spell (smirf neblin??) and had every item he needed and could do anything. He had $ pages or written (and crossed out and re-written) notes as a character sheet. AUGH!!! it took him FOREVER to decide what to do.


OOps ! This should say "He had 4 pages of written notes…"  I have no typing skills.

4:11 am
March 8, 2009


SkilGalen

Admin

posts 59

I don't know if they watered it down that much, and think they did a fairly good job of streamlining it. The biggest fault I see is that all the classes have been overbalanced so they are a bit more generic in abilities. My human Ranger can make a pretty good rogue and can actually beat one at a lot of things due to having amazing perception skills.

Were playing in a hybrid game where half the players have 3.5 characters, to compensate for some of 4.0's advantages early on, the DM had 3.x players get some extra feats. Overall the game doesn't seem to be effected too much by the mix of players. Have to make some compromises for healing and action points are pretty cool in 4. But for the most part the game stays pretty similar on both sides of the fence. We ignore some of the rules like treasure parcels I keep hearing mentioned which sound a bit weird. I only heard about them and skimmed through them on the main wizards forums and online magazines and didn't like the sound of them. For me the fun of the game is a natural realistic progression of a character and story spanning months of gameplay. So anything that breaks up that flow and forces weird leveling up treasure alocation is bad, kind of like a video game.

I'm a firm believer in using whats found and leaving it upto the DM to remove a badly balanced item or hoard in a believable fashion.

12:45 pm
March 8, 2009


Matt_R

Hero

posts 69

I agree. Despite all the similarities AND differences in the editions, if you have good players, and a good DM, the game should be a lot of fun. I play Marvel superheroes with one GM who ignores some rules, and modifies others to suit his campaign. The basics remain the same, but, he explains his modification to the players and we all have a great time.

2:51 pm
March 31, 2009


Odd_Canuck

Veteran

posts 24

I've played and run it a bit now with my regular group.

As others have mentioned, it's very easy to pick up and go.  Good for young or new players, it's very handy for getting newbies addicted to RPGing.  Of course, Wizards of the Coast (hereafter called wotc or Hasbro) wouldn't make a whole new product without aiming to get market share.

From a GM point of view, it's easy to throw together a quick on the fly game in it.  If you have reasonable creativity and an idea of what kind of "evils" your party will be dealing with, you can pull 90% of the adventure out on the fly.  Wotc seems to be doing this a lot lately, if you are star wars fans take a look at Scum and Villainy for Saga Edition, it does the same thing.  You can pull random missions and 75% of the stuff you need on the fly.

Characters advance quickly.  This is good for people who want to see people get powerful fast.  It could also be argued that this can work against role play in some ways.  The terrifying city guard captain who kicked your collective asses last month before you started the dungeon can now be killed by the wizard… without magic.

Notable drawbacks, the biggest that I have is that you have less the character classes (Wizard, fighter, cleric) and more roles.  You are a Defender.  Okay, you have different thematic style than a different defender, but your powers (minus the cool descriptions and effects) are going to be almost identical.  This (in my opinion) contributes to the "computer game" feel.

Finite Powers at high levels.  This may seem like a good thing, but if you are a 20th level character it's expected that you are able to open a can of whoop-ass.  Then you realize that you have 4 daily powers, 4 encounter and 6 utility.  That means against the creatures that have a LOT more hitpoints than 3.5, you effectively have 4 Powerful attacks, 4 good attacks, and then you are using at-will attacks again.  Since everything is scaling up with the characters that means that you pretty much continually have the 7/20 to 1/20 chance of hitting something at your level that your character usually does (depending on how focused you are in the particular attack).  In short, playing it at high levels is Exactly like playing at low levels… your attacks just have bigger numbers against enemy proportionally bigger numbers.

The biggest headache I have is not that wotc is churning out new books and material, it's the RATE they are doing it at.  Every book has new something that players will want to include, or at least some of them.  They are making what seems like 1 new core book per month.  By the time the system is a year and a half old, they are expected to have the 2nd core books as well as the 2nd of the expansion books like Adventure's Vault.  Add in to that the fact that they are including new feats and abilities in the monthly magazine and it suddenly starts to get overwhelming to try and keep track or even remotely up to date.  On the flip side it also means that by about 2015 they'll have released every book they had for the 3.0/3.5 version… what happens then?

Good neighbor, put away your silver for I only fight for 3 things; Purity, Nobility and Self-Sacrifice.*

*- The purity of your gold, the Nobility that have gold and the Self-Sacrifice of others so that I get their gold.

3:06 pm
March 31, 2009


SkilGalen

Admin

posts 59

Some good points there Canuck. Our group played at great escape on sunday and between us we bought 4 copies of PHB2. I so think the core books are worth it. But I have to question some of the supplements.

I'm a Ranger and the Martial Power book extends the Ranger class so you can get Beast mastery and everything that comes with that. I'm not actually interested in beastmastery but there are also a handfull of extra powers like offhand strike that allow you an extra offhand melee attack as a minor action. Pretty neat but your group is strict about having the books to use the feaure thats $20 and yet another volume to sift through to build your character. It's getting to the point when it would almost be better to just have seperate books for each class, with all the races in each listed just so you don't have to sift through 3-4 books all the time.

Better not give wizards any ideas or that will be after 2015 and 5E Tongue out


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